Table of Contents for this issue:

128/SE/6100
Re: Classic Macs Digests 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, & 1.8
Re: Apple cd-rom
Bad Video Card?
Recipe Programs
Subscription Request
MacWeb
Speed up a IIfx
Apple ImageWriter II
problem(s)?
Re: Need Small Start-up System
STILL MORE MACPLUS HD PROBLEMS!!!
Re: Re: Apple cd-roms and tech support
Re: Classic Macs Digest 1.8
MacPlus
On the net with 2 Megs of RAM?

I have a 128, with the 512 upgrade, that I want to DO something with. I
currently have a small network of my 6100, my SE, and my CSW2500 (its
really a cannon printer, Apple sells it as a StyleWriter). Would it be
possible to add the 512 (128, whatever) to this network?

The drive on the 512 crashed before I got it, and I currently have a 800K
drive on it (one drive only. I'm 13, so I can't be an old mac fart yet,
but I sure know about running with 1 drive!) but I think it only reads
400K disks. I would probably need a ROM upgrade to do 800K. Anyway, If I
could run sys6.0.8, I think it could talk to my 6100/SE network. Anyway,
if you have any sugestions, eMail me.

Also, any recomendations on what the best system for the SE would be, I
could use em. I have 6.0.8 right now, and don't know what flavor of 7 to
download.

Subject: Re: Classic Macs Digests 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, & 1.8
Sent: 1/21/97 5:05 PM
Received: 1/22/97 9:37 AM
From: Edmund A. Hintz
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

I'm afraid *you* are *missing my point*.

Nope. I think you're missing mine.

I said neither that Apple should provide "tech support for [my] cd-rom" nor
that "apple *didn't* include the driver for [my?] el cheapo made in Ukraine
[?] cd-rom."

Coloration. The point is Apple didn't make it.

Here is my point once more. Now pay attention.

1. Under "hitsuyo-na-shisutemu-no-kousei" (System *Requirements*) the
Macintosh "Kanji" Talk 7.5 box says:
"- [snip]
"- [snip]
"- Appuru-sha-sei-no-CD ROM-doraibu (CD-kara-insutoru-suru-bai)" [A
CD ROM drive *manufactured by Apple* (if you are going to install from a
CD)]"

2. When I called Apple to question this, their service rep did indeed try
to make me think that I *could not* use any CD ROM drive that was not
Apple.

3. Give me an example of *any other* software package that dictates -- or
even suggests -- whicxh manufacturer's CD ROM drive (or floppy disk drive)
must be used to install the software.
(This challenge, naturally, applies only to the Apple milieu -- I have *no
idea* what sort of tricks Bill Gates has come up with recently......)

Give me an example of any other company that supplies both hardware
and software. Apple makes it simple for themselves by saying
(normally)"we don't reccomend that". Apple could say that it runs fine
on x, y, and z cd-roms, but the easiest soloution for them is to say "use
ours". Which is something unique to thier company. Since Microsoft,
Claris, Adobe, etc., don't market cd-roms, they don't have that luxury.
Instead, they say it's the cd-rom manufacturers fault, and make you wait
2 hours on a different tech support line.

Rodney
(in Hayama Japan)

PS I am not an idiot, if that was what you intended to imply.

Nope. I intended to illustrate the position which Apple would find
themselves in if they didn't state "we don't reccomend that". You seem
far too intelligent to hold Apple responsible for a 3rd party device.

PPS I still haven't been able to make a lick of sense out of your
McDonald's hot coffee metaphor.....

Remember the well publicized lawsuit of the lady who burned herself
with hot coffee? McDonald's was found liable in a court of law, and paid
restitution to the woman. The metaphor is that if Apple doesn't cover
their tail, someone's gonna whack it... ;-) With a "it's not my fault"
customer mentality, someone would surely holler foul at Apple if they
opened the door to it. Unfotunately, this kind of attitude makes everyone
lose in the long run-a few rotten apples spoil the barrel, if you'll
pardon the pun... ;-)

Peace,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edmund A. "Eddie" Hintz **|** "You may say I'm a dreamer,
___________________________________________________

ATTENTION: SPECIAL NOTICE FROM THE LIST MANAGER:

While discussion content such as the one above will be permitted on its
intellectual merit, subscribers will be held to a high standard in the
future in terms of civility. Posts with excessive sarcasm or replete with
unfriendly attacks will not be published. Let's maintain a gentleperson's
table of discussion, please. This list is published with minimal interference
from the List Owner or moderators and it will continue to be an open forum
for relevant topics. But let's not forget that we all share a common passion. ___________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Apple cd-rom
Sent: 1/22/97 3:04 AM
Received: 1/22/97 9:36 AM
From: Rodney A. Hoiseth
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

Thank you for the "lightened up" conciliation and the explanation. I now
understand what you want to say.
However, I still reserve my right to disagree -- with Apple and with you:
1. I was *not* asking Apple for tech support on my
3rd-party/non-Apple CD ROM drive; I was asking for support on installation
of (Apple's) *Mac OS software*. And I don't believe even Apple would agree
in principle with your suggestion that the Mac OS is inextricable from
non-CPU Apple hardware.

2. In response to your counter-question (i.e., non-answer) about
other makers of hardware and software: IBM Japan *used to* supply both
hardware and software; and they wrote the book on ".... if it isn't made
here....." (I don't know if that was to cover their tails or why....;-)
Since those days, they have managed to cede a great deal of their market
share to the local companies and -- are you ready for this -- to Apple !!!
And they also succeeded in pricing themselves right out of the market on
software, while they were at it.

3. If Apple demands such exacting compliance with Apple standards
from developers of software and hardware in order to ensure high standards
and compatibility with the Macintosh platform (as they well should), yet
out of the other side of their mouth they say "but you can only use it with
the Macintosh platform if it is manufactured by Apple" they are:
a. creating a catch-22 for their loyal developer- and
user-bases, and
b. engaging in the type of "empire building" that
1) served only to compress Apple market share in
the past, and
2) they [and I, and other Mac loyalists] love to
hate Bill Gates for.
Apple should be doing everything within the limitations imposed by their
high quality standards to *encourage* compatibility in order to win back
valuable market share for the Macintosh platform -- especially now that
they have started licensing the Mac OS.
When I was in the States in December I went into a brand new Egghead
Software store and they didn't have a single Mac software package -- not a
single solitary one. (The clerk said "...only the dual platform CD ROMs..."
[i.e., Games, Entertainment, etc. -- non-application stuff]"). And the
three other stores in the neighborhood, where only about a year-and-a-half
ago I had been able to find a fairly good selection of Mac software, are
obviously in the process of phasing out Mac software, too. Their selection
was minimal; and their standard response to my inquiries about upgrades and
new packages was "We don't have that in stock."; and the response to my
follow-up inquiry about special-ordering was "Sorry...."
In fact, the only store I could find with a decent selection of Mac
software and/or hardware within a 75-mile radius of the town where I stayed
-- a university town, where Apple is supposed to have a market advantage --
was one that deals exclusively in Apple/Mac.

4. I know all about what happened in the McDonald's lawsuit (and I
am just as disgusted by such waste of the court's time and resources as
anyone), but I still think your metaphor is a lame one:
a. We are discussing installation of a computer OS -- which
even by the wildest stretch of the imagination bears no resemblance
whatsoever to spilling coffee! (Maybe Mike Tyson's experience in court
would have provided a better vehicle (?) ;-)
b. Every software vendor's "tail" is *very well covered* by
the more-than-adequate Software License Agreement to which users consent
when they break open the shrinkwrap on their software. And even if Apple's
reason for "requiring" the use of an Apple CD ROM drive to install software
were to cover their tails, I don't believe such a policy would be in
anyone's best interests: If I have invested in a Mac-based system and piece
by piece Apple tries to coerce me into replacing everything that is not
manufactured by Apple with an Apple one, I have two choices:
1) first search out a place where I can find Apple
equipment and then dig a little deeper into my pocket every time I want to
enhance my system, or
2) switch to "The Other" platform where it's easier
to find a wide range of software and hardware that is -- at least nominally
-- compatible with all the other pieces of my system.
Obviously you and I are not going to opt for number 2 without a fight. But
what about all those poor folks out in the real world who are in a
small-and-dwindling minority and surrounded by a "hostile" business
environment committed to the PC/Wintel megalopoly -- those who have to
*justify* their choice of Apple/Macintosh on a regular basis. How much time
and effort can they realistically afford to continue to invest in changing
the world?
Think about it...

BTW Just curious. Do you have an Apple CD ROM drive? What were your
criteria for choosing your CD ROM drive?

PS Maybe you're *not* missing my point: perhaps you're just *evading* it....;-)

Peace with honor.....

Rodney
(in Hayama Japan)
'70 1200 cc Beetle (Custom Chartreuse) "upgraded" to 1600 cc

At 21:51 97/01/21 +0000, Edmund A. Hintz wrote:
I'm afraid *you* are *missing my point*.

Nope. I think you're missing mine.

I said neither that Apple should provide "tech support for [my] cd-rom" nor
that "apple *didn't* include the driver for [my?] el cheapo made in Ukraine
[?] cd-rom."

Coloration. The point is Apple didn't make it.

Here is my point once more. Now pay attention.
1. Under "hitsuyo-na-shisutemu-no-kousei" (System *Requirements*) the
Macintosh "Kanji" Talk 7.5 box says:
"- [snip]
"- [snip]
"- Appuru-sha-sei-no-CD ROM-doraibu (CD-kara-insutoru-suru-bai)" [A
CD ROM drive *manufactured by Apple* (if you are going to install from a
CD)]"

2. When I called Apple to question this, their service rep did indeed try
to make me think that I *could not* use any CD ROM drive that was not
Apple.

3. Give me an example of *any other* software package that dictates -- or
even suggests -- whicxh manufacturer's CD ROM drive (or floppy disk drive)
must be used to install the software.
(This challenge, naturally, applies only to the Apple milieu -- I have *no
idea* what sort of tricks Bill Gates has come up with recently......)

Give me an example of any other company that supplies both hardware
and software. Apple makes it simple for themselves by saying
(normally)"we don't reccomend that". Apple could say that it runs fine
on x, y, and z cd-roms, but the easiest soloution for them is to say "use
ours". Which is something unique to thier company. Since Microsoft,
Claris, Adobe, etc., don't market cd-roms, they don't have that luxury.
Instead, they say it's the cd-rom manufacturers fault, and make you wait
2 hours on a different tech support line.

Rodney
(in Hayama Japan)

PS I am not an idiot, if that was what you intended to imply.

Nope. I intended to illustrate the position which Apple would find
themselves in if they didn't state "we don't reccomend that". You seem
far too intelligent to hold Apple responsible for a 3rd party device.

PPS I still haven't been able to make a lick of sense out of your
McDonald's hot coffee metaphor.....

Remember the well publicized lawsuit of the lady who burned herself
with hot coffee? McDonald's was found liable in a court of law, and paid
restitution to the woman. The metaphor is that if Apple doesn't cover
their tail, someone's gonna whack it... ;-) With a "it's not my fault"
customer mentality, someone would surely holler foul at Apple if they
opened the door to it. Unfotunately, this kind of attitude makes everyone
lose in the long run-a few rotten apples spoil the barrel, if you'll
pardon the pun... ;-)

Peace,
Edmund A. "Eddie" Hintz

**|** "You may say I'm a dreamer,

__________________________________________________
Subject: Bad Video Card?
Sent: 1/21/97 11:20 PM
Received: 1/22/97 9:37 AM
From: Chris Wallendorf
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

I have an accelerated Mac II which has worked well for many years as a
mail and calendar server on a small appletalk network. This weekend, the
monitor went black as if it had been turned off. Although the monitor
shows a black screen, the server is still operating and can be mounted
over the network. Thinking that the monitor had failed, I connected
another monitor to the Mac II with the same result--no picture. Next I
tried moving the video card to another slot. Still no change. Did my
video card die? It is the original Apple TBF video card. I'm sure the
monitor is getting power as it heats up. Could this problem be caused by
something else besides a failed video card? If so, what choices do I
have for replacement?

Chris Wallendorf
___________________________________________________
Subject: Recipe Programs
Sent: 1/21/97 10:22 PM
Received: 1/22/97 9:37 AM
From: The Malawi's
To: Classic Macs, classic-post@hitznet.com

Subject: Recipe Programs
From: Charles Thompson

OK, I have an SE with a 16Mhz accelerator sitting on my kitchen counter
running Now Contact and system 7.5.3. I have been looking for a recipe
program with a database of recipes and have had no luck. I've downloaded
dozens from the net but none has worked (either the screen was too small
or the program crashed or something). Anyone know of a good one?

Thanks,

a few years ago i downloaded 'definitive desserts 1.2' from america
online. it was a shareware ($10) hypercard stack that came with a whole
bunch of dessert recipes, and also allowed the user to add your own
(desserts or other). author: robin seer. email on america online:
robinseer. not sure if it is still out there.

i ended up not using it and instead creating a much simpler stack from
the old hypercard 1.2 stack ideas. if you want i can email you either or
both.

hilal
___________________________________________________
Subject: Subscription Request
Sent: 1/22/97 2:38 PM
Received: 1/23/97 9:53 AM
From: Steve Hanson
To: classicmacs@hitznet.com

I wish to subscribe to Classic Macs.

I have 7500 Power Mac now, but still run my older macs every day.
I have an Mac SE, Mac II, Mac IIx and a Mac IIci. All of them have
been running every day since they were new. I have only had
two of the Quantum 80MB drives die recently. Not bad for almost
a decade of reliable service.

The most important thing you can do to keep your Mac alive and
well, is to keep it clean. I take them apart every six months
and blow out all the dust they suck in. A very small drop of
lubrcant on the floppy drive mechanisms once a year keeps them in
good working order.

I love my older Macs. They are built like tanks. With a little
regular maintanence they countinue to work great. I hope to
get another ten years of service out of them, but by that time
I'm afraid they may be truly obsolete.

- Steve Hanson
___________________________________________________
Subject: MacWeb
Sent: 1/22/97 1:34 PM
Received: 1/23/97 9:55 AM
From: Jerry Levinson
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

As a little follow-up to the MacWeb business, I just received an email
from a TradeWave PR person saying they "no longer support" it, didn't
mention it was part of their other offerings, just "no longer" supported.

They must have decided to unsupport it after giving MacWorld permission to
put on the CD. But why didn't they put up a web page saying this, thereby
saving us a lot of bother?

Jerry
___________________________________________________
Subject: Speed up a IIfx
Sent: 1/22/97 1:54 PM
Received: 1/23/97 9:55 AM
From: Truls Hanholm Wang-Johannessen
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

Hi folks,

I use a IIfx (1300 MB HD and 8 MB RAM), it s a good MAC, but a little bit slow.
Do anyone know how I can speed it up in a cheep way??
(It s already upgraded from a II to a IIfx)
Can I make a PowerMAC of it??

I hope anyone will answer me....
___________________________________________________
Subject: Apple ImageWriter II
Sent: 1/23/97 6:40 AM
Received: 1/23/97 11:09 AM
From: NT
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

I am the new owner of the above printer that is known to work. I don't
know anything about it and would like some information to get it up and
running. I got it from someone (a pc user) who got it from someone else
and thought of me. Had I been there, I would have asked all of these
questions of the original owner.

I have an LC III w/36mb RAM, MacOS 7.5.5.
I have a HP DeskWriter C printer presently hooked up and functioning
properly to my Mac.
I received this printer FREE but without:
manual
cable for connection to my Mac
power cord/adapter

What cable do I need to get-specifically to hook it up to my Mac? I need
to know EXACTLY what to tell the person on the other end of the phone who
doesn't seem to know diddly about computers, but is taking my order. (A
recent experience with a certain mail-order company and a Centronics 50/50
cable is still not resolved. ) Since I don't have a manual, I feel quite
at a loss.

I assume there isn't a power adapter specifically for this printer? I am
thinking I should be able to just use a generic one?
I am interested in getting a switch box so that I can switch between these
2 printers as I need. What do I need for switching? I don't want to get
port juggler-seems a bit much for just 2 printers. And yes, my other
serial port is in use for my GV Platinum-which I use much too often to
consider that port in this scenario.

What is the name of these ink ribbon things? Is there a generic
equivalent, or is this an Apple only product?
What media will this print on? Can I print labels?

Sorry to inundate everyone with so many questions, but I don't personally
know anyone that has an ImageWriter II to ask instead. If there is
anything that I haven't thought of to ask, I would greatly appreciate it if
I were informed of it.

Well, I gotta get some sleep so I can get up early and peruse Apple's web
pages in hopes of finding an up-to-date driver for this printer instead of
digging thru some part of one of these 7.5x updates for it. Yeah, I threw
out the excess drivers to keep my system folder lean.

Thanks in advance for any help

NT
___________________________________________________
Subject: problem(s)?
Sent: 1/22/97 4:05 PM
Received: 1/23/97 11:10 AM
From: Mary Elliff
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

Is there any conceivable way to make an Apple Stylewriter 1500
printer work with a Mac Classic. The printer software says it requires a
processor with at least 68020 and system 7.1. If I go to the trouble of
loading system 7.1, will the printer software still not work because of the
processor?

Mary Elliff, Geotechnics Research Group
___________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Need Small Start-up System
Sent: 1/22/97 8:07 PM
Received: 1/23/97 11:10 AM
From: B Soluski
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

David G. Wood wrote:

Can anyone point me to a source of a smaller system version that will start
up my Mac LC but will take up only about 600KB - 700KB on the floppy? Is
there a version of system 7 that is small enough? If so where can I find
it? Does such a thing even exist?

There is a trick...

Obtain a working "Disk Tools" floppy from a system install.
Copy it floppy to floppy or with Shrinkwrap.
Remove DiskFirstAid and the FInder.
Copy the utility you want to the floppy system folder.
Rename the utility "Finder".
Change type/creator of the utility to that of the Finder
(possibly optional).
Move new "Finder" file out of system folder
and then back in to bless the system folder.
Boot with it.

This works for me!
There are permutations on the procedure,
but you should get the idea.

Bruce

PS: remove color icons from the utility/system for more room.
___________________________________________________
Subject: STILL MORE MACPLUS HD PROBLEMS!!!
Sent: 1/23/97 1:36 AM
Received: 1/23/97 11:10 AM
From: Bret Alan Fessenden
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

Hey all again,

I STILL cannot get my 20SC external drive to work with my MacPlus (4 RAM).

***PLEASE read all of the following carefully before you respond***;

I was told by several people that either the formatting (interleave) or the
fact that the Plus is not terminated internally could be the cause.
SCSI-Probe, in fact, does report that the internal bus is not terminated,
even when nothing is atttached (or when it is).

FACT 1: The 20SC works great with my PERFORMA 6115, with just a SCSI cable
and regular terminator.

FACT 2: My OTHER external HD, a Quantum 350 meg bought recently, WORKS
with the PLUS just fine, except that the Plus will not boot from it, and I
have to use SCSI-Probe to mount it.

FACT 3: Since the Plus cannot even SEE the 20SC, I have to format it from
the PERFORMA. BUT, I have tried every formatting device I have, and have
formatted the 20SC at a 3 to 1 interleave, as it should be for the Plus.

I wait for at least a minute before the Plus starts up to make sure that
the drive is up to speed. It does not see it. So I run SCSI-Probe, which
cannot see it either! I have tried to run the 6.0.8 and 7.0 disk tools
versions of Apple HD Set-Up to locate the drive - they cannot see it
either.

I have tried everything I can think of, including using the 50-pin drive
terminator on the drive, NOT using it at all, using a flow-through 50-pin
on the drive between the cable and the drive, between the drive and the
terminator, using it all by itself, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Now, REMEMBER, my other HD (a much more current one) works okay on the
Plus, as does the 20SC work fine on my PERFORMA.

My only other option here is to try a 25-pin flow-through terminator
between the Plus and the SCSI cable, BUT I CANNOT FIND ONE!!! I have tried
at least five different new retailers, and at least 5 different used
retailers, and not only does NO ONE KNOW WHAT THE HECK I'M TALKING ABOUT,
BUT THEY TELL ME THAT A FLOW-THROUGH TERMINATOR WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM!

(with no further suggestions) AAAAGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

What the heck am I supposed to do?

HELP!

-- Bret
___________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Re: Apple cd-roms and tech support
Sent: 1/23/97 3:14 AM
Received: 1/23/97 11:10 AM
From: WrestleFly
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

Subject: Re: Apple cd-roms and tech support
From: Edmund A. Hintz

But my point was not that Apple didn't include the driver for my CD ROM
player, but rather that Apple's attitude is that if you don't have an
_Apple_ CD ROM player you can't install the OS from the CD.

I've installed System 7.5.3 from a portable Reno Drive, external CD ROM
onto a Mac LC. The drive is two years old, 2x speed. I use it sometimes
with my Powerbook 520c.
(1) With power off, connect the equipment. My connection was to the SCSI
port.
(2) Depress "Shift/Optn/apple/delete" as you start up to boot from the
CD-ROM.
(3) Update the HD Driver. This will show the internal, or other, HD.
(4) Follow instructions.
Note: I elected to Custom Install to choose what I wanted on that machine.

Frank Rader
Powerbook 520c
wrestlefly
___________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Classic Macs Digest 1.8
Sent: 1/23/97 4:08 AM
Received: 1/23/97 11:10 AM
From: WrestleFly
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

For help from the Classic Mac people:

I found a network using 1 meg Macs linked with Appletalk to a 170 meg HD run
by a 1 meg mac. The 1 meg Macs have no harddrives and use a floppy to both
boot (System 6.0.X) and access the network. There are five 1 meg Macs, an SE
or two, an SE/30 and some newer, Power PC Macs on the System.

All applications and files are on the network server, which is System 6.0.8
based.

Does it make sense to add memory to the Macs to "Plus" them, then install
system 7.5.5 mimimum and add local HD's that can be moved to newer machines
later? The principal writing program is Write Now, version 3.0, I think.
Spreadsheet is Excel 2.0. I'd like to get them onto Clarisworks 4.0, but
don't think 4.0 runs on less thatn 030, so Clarisworks 3.0 is may be.

The system is heavily used, rock solid reliable, and the owners do not want
it messed up.
___________________________________________________
Subject: MacPlus
Sent: 1/23/97 6:47 PM
Received: 1/23/97 7:56 PM
From: Karl Hoffman
To: classicmacs@hitznet.com

i'm writing in hopes of some help. i just picked up a Macintosh Plus
last weekend. i thought it had only one meg of ram until i took off the
case and seen 4 in there. i clipped the R9 on the board like it said in
MacAddict, R8 was already gone. when i went to boot it up in only
getting a happy mac about an inch square. just sits there and stares.
any help would be greatly appreaceated ( bad spelling )
thank you,

karl hoffman
___________________________________________________
Subject: On the net with 2 Megs of RAM?
Sent: 1/23/97 8:54 PM
Received: 1/23/97 9:02 PM
From: Brevard Blythe (rekcaH caM)
To: classic-post@hitznet.com

Let me start by saying that I love these old Macs... I recently found an
old Mac 512k that had a broken monitor... upon inspection (and purchase)
I found that it had been upgraded to a Mac Plus via a company once
called Monster Mac... New ROMS, 2 Megs of RAM and a jerry rigged
(daughter) board sodered to it... the RAM is soldered to the board with
no way to increase it. There is a SCSI port out the back that I have a
40 Meg hard drive attached.

I repaired the monitor and got system 7.0 running on the thing (at
975k).My question is.. is there ANY way to get this Running on the net
(eudora and telnet.. not worried about web browsing... thats what my
performa is for). Do I have to switch to system 6.0.X and find some old
software??? I read the artical posted on this group regarding a 4 Megs
of RAM minimum... this is disheartening... as the chance of virtual
memory is out the window on the 68000 Macs. ANY replys or words of
ENCOURAGEMENT would be welcome.

--